Sure its art but is it any good?
Oct. 24th, 2005 12:34 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
joflasherNice to see that the yearly cycle continues. Not the seasons, of course (hello, autumn), but the amateur vs. profession discussion in the art circles. They show up like clockwork, every year.
"I'm a pro, I'm published and my stuff's on t-shirts"
"you're an amateur, you have a day job that keeps you fed"
"We're not amateurs, we're emerging artists"
"If being pro means looking down your noses at the rest of us, then you can just leave"
"nice try, but if you want something to sell, the art has to be good..."
I think Barry Short had the best definition of professional artist so far -if you make more money selling art than you spend creating it, you're a professional. So far, I may or may not be a pro, depending on what month you ask me but you know what? I don't really care. I label myself semi-pro if given the choice and amateur otherwise. I don't think my art would magically start selling better if I put down pro on everything, otherwise I'd do it. My stuff is doing okay ... every quarter is better than the last and in a few years, I'll have no free time at all and STILL have a day job to keep my mortgage paid. Wonderful, glamous future to look forward to, isn't it? Yet the terms "diva" and "elitist" get bandied about whenever the "pros" bring up the hard facts of trying to make a living at art ... namely, you have to be able to sell it, the public has to want to buy it from you and the public isn't entirely made up of your friends and family.
And GOD forbid you bring up the idea of technical skill in artwork. Doesn't exist. All artists are equal and so is all art. Forgive me while I cry bullshit! You may believe that but the art buying public doesn't and neither do I. One artist's husband said it best - "I may not like a piece but I can tell when its good." You might like a crayon scribble but it is not the same, skill wise, as a Micheal Whelan painting. I'll buy one if I have money to burn, I won't buy the other. Simple fact. You guess which is which.
Sorry, all art is not equal and pointing out that fact should not be a hanging offense. Ladies and gentlemen, there will ALWAYS be someone better than you at ANYTHING you do. Always. Accept it, deal with it, strive to become better at your craft but don't sit there spewing out "all of our art deserves equal appreciation" and act all indignant when others don't buy into it.
On the thread of quality, some of the forums I hang out on treat Epilogue as a dirty word. "We can't moderate for quality, we'll be like Epilogue". "You should go hang out at Epilogue, they like people like you over there". "Epilogue's nothing but a bunch of snobs, they said my painting wasn't good enough". Yep, and the reason everyone is so touchy about Epilogue? The one and only reason? Getting a piece in there gives you bragging rights. That's it. Its one of the strictest jurying gallery on internet. Consistant or not, always right or not, they sit on top of the fantasy internet galleries for the sole reason that they jury based on technical skill. Getting something past them gives you the right to say "my stuff is good enough to hang with the likes of X" where X can be anyone from James Browne to Nene Thomas to Christopher Vacher. Bragging rights, plain and simple.
Hell, people PAY for the chance to get turned down by Spectrum for the same reason ... if you make it past the jury, you get many artist ego points redemable for valuable prizes in the hereafter. Same with the New Masters of Fantasy, although that has less prestigue. People want in because it'll inflate their reputations and give them one more line to add to the forum sigs. They just don't want to admit that a quality standard has to be upheld in order for any inflating to happen to anyone. Everyone fears being not good enough, everyone fears being the last one picked for the team. Its silly, people. Either you want the standards for the cudos they can bring or you should go submit to the hundred non-juried galleries out there. If you don't want to risk rejection, don't submit your stuff for judging. Also, if your art is rejected? Its your ART, not you. There is a difference.
The general public is a hell of a lot less forgiving about lack of skill than another artist will be. The general public KNOWS what a human body looks like so if your anatomy is off, its bad art. The general public KNOWS what perspective should look like, even if they can't draw it themselves, and if you screw it up too badly, again, you've created bad art. Another artist KNOWS how hard it is to get everything right and will see the effort involved and appreciate the art for that alone. Don't expect the same from non-artists unless you are married to them. Other artists see what you did right. The public sees what you did wrong. If you're lucky, they choose to overlook it and buy from you anyways.
I guess it boils down to me wanting everyone to stop fighting about foolish words and waving egos around like pool noodles. It doesn't really matter. If you are trying to make a living at art, then you're only going to get better by being judged unworthy and having achievable goals to work towards. This is coming from someone who's consistantly rejected. I haven't stopped submitting, I've just stopped submitting things I know shouldn't make it.
If you are just doing art for fun, well, no one really just does it for fun, do they? Otherwise we wouldn't get all those hurt feelings when Epi does a smack down or someone says something negative about a picture. For fun doesn't sting, does it.I will point out that I've said nothing about the artists themselves, as people. Not being a master painter doesn't mean we're bad people or that we should never pick up a paint brush again. Acknowledging that there are better artist than you in the world isn't a sign of defeat.
So this rant is going to piss off people. I'm okay with that. I gave up editing myself just to be liked a long time ago. I'll be the bitch since, really, every project needs one. If you don't have one, the candy colored glasses never come off and reality gets to blindside you with a two by four. And the bitch says that the labels don't matter but skill level does.
"I'm a pro, I'm published and my stuff's on t-shirts"
"you're an amateur, you have a day job that keeps you fed"
"We're not amateurs, we're emerging artists"
"If being pro means looking down your noses at the rest of us, then you can just leave"
"nice try, but if you want something to sell, the art has to be good..."
I think Barry Short had the best definition of professional artist so far -if you make more money selling art than you spend creating it, you're a professional. So far, I may or may not be a pro, depending on what month you ask me but you know what? I don't really care. I label myself semi-pro if given the choice and amateur otherwise. I don't think my art would magically start selling better if I put down pro on everything, otherwise I'd do it. My stuff is doing okay ... every quarter is better than the last and in a few years, I'll have no free time at all and STILL have a day job to keep my mortgage paid. Wonderful, glamous future to look forward to, isn't it? Yet the terms "diva" and "elitist" get bandied about whenever the "pros" bring up the hard facts of trying to make a living at art ... namely, you have to be able to sell it, the public has to want to buy it from you and the public isn't entirely made up of your friends and family.
And GOD forbid you bring up the idea of technical skill in artwork. Doesn't exist. All artists are equal and so is all art. Forgive me while I cry bullshit! You may believe that but the art buying public doesn't and neither do I. One artist's husband said it best - "I may not like a piece but I can tell when its good." You might like a crayon scribble but it is not the same, skill wise, as a Micheal Whelan painting. I'll buy one if I have money to burn, I won't buy the other. Simple fact. You guess which is which.
Sorry, all art is not equal and pointing out that fact should not be a hanging offense. Ladies and gentlemen, there will ALWAYS be someone better than you at ANYTHING you do. Always. Accept it, deal with it, strive to become better at your craft but don't sit there spewing out "all of our art deserves equal appreciation" and act all indignant when others don't buy into it.
On the thread of quality, some of the forums I hang out on treat Epilogue as a dirty word. "We can't moderate for quality, we'll be like Epilogue". "You should go hang out at Epilogue, they like people like you over there". "Epilogue's nothing but a bunch of snobs, they said my painting wasn't good enough". Yep, and the reason everyone is so touchy about Epilogue? The one and only reason? Getting a piece in there gives you bragging rights. That's it. Its one of the strictest jurying gallery on internet. Consistant or not, always right or not, they sit on top of the fantasy internet galleries for the sole reason that they jury based on technical skill. Getting something past them gives you the right to say "my stuff is good enough to hang with the likes of X" where X can be anyone from James Browne to Nene Thomas to Christopher Vacher. Bragging rights, plain and simple.
Hell, people PAY for the chance to get turned down by Spectrum for the same reason ... if you make it past the jury, you get many artist ego points redemable for valuable prizes in the hereafter. Same with the New Masters of Fantasy, although that has less prestigue. People want in because it'll inflate their reputations and give them one more line to add to the forum sigs. They just don't want to admit that a quality standard has to be upheld in order for any inflating to happen to anyone. Everyone fears being not good enough, everyone fears being the last one picked for the team. Its silly, people. Either you want the standards for the cudos they can bring or you should go submit to the hundred non-juried galleries out there. If you don't want to risk rejection, don't submit your stuff for judging. Also, if your art is rejected? Its your ART, not you. There is a difference.
The general public is a hell of a lot less forgiving about lack of skill than another artist will be. The general public KNOWS what a human body looks like so if your anatomy is off, its bad art. The general public KNOWS what perspective should look like, even if they can't draw it themselves, and if you screw it up too badly, again, you've created bad art. Another artist KNOWS how hard it is to get everything right and will see the effort involved and appreciate the art for that alone. Don't expect the same from non-artists unless you are married to them. Other artists see what you did right. The public sees what you did wrong. If you're lucky, they choose to overlook it and buy from you anyways.
I guess it boils down to me wanting everyone to stop fighting about foolish words and waving egos around like pool noodles. It doesn't really matter. If you are trying to make a living at art, then you're only going to get better by being judged unworthy and having achievable goals to work towards. This is coming from someone who's consistantly rejected. I haven't stopped submitting, I've just stopped submitting things I know shouldn't make it.
If you are just doing art for fun, well, no one really just does it for fun, do they? Otherwise we wouldn't get all those hurt feelings when Epi does a smack down or someone says something negative about a picture. For fun doesn't sting, does it.I will point out that I've said nothing about the artists themselves, as people. Not being a master painter doesn't mean we're bad people or that we should never pick up a paint brush again. Acknowledging that there are better artist than you in the world isn't a sign of defeat.
So this rant is going to piss off people. I'm okay with that. I gave up editing myself just to be liked a long time ago. I'll be the bitch since, really, every project needs one. If you don't have one, the candy colored glasses never come off and reality gets to blindside you with a two by four. And the bitch says that the labels don't matter but skill level does.
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no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 06:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 06:56 pm (UTC)and less time complaining, they might improve.
But a lot of people just don't seem to be built that way. :-P
no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 07:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 07:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 08:07 pm (UTC)Some people can rant and be productive at (nearly) the same time. ;-)
no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 07:25 pm (UTC)Anyway. I agree that people will buy what they like. I also agree that you should always strive to improve, and that there will ALWAYS be someone better than you.
I'm not as sure about the anatomy thing. NOT that anatomy should be grossly off!!! But since it IS fantasy art, who's to say that a faerie, elf or mermaid has the same proportions as a human? I know I have anatomy issues to work out, but I feel that I've improved somewhat.
I don't cry every time Epi rejects me, and they ALWAYS do, but I strive to be better in the hopes that ONE DAY I will get something accepted there.
I applaud anyone who sticks to their guns and keeps trying and isn't "snobbish." but I guess I don't see so much of it as others do...
no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 07:50 pm (UTC)I don't see a lot of snobbishness but I do see a lot of, for lack of a better word, beginners who don't want to face reality outside of our little artist enclaves. Having a pro, however you define it, tell you that a something won't sell because the skill level isn't on par with other products like it isn't snobbishness, its advice that could save you money and heartache. You can take it or leave it but throwing a fit because "so and so" was soooo very mean to you just rankles. I can't believe people would rather be patted on the head than warned.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 07:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 08:01 pm (UTC)Like I said, I guess I take everything with a grain of salt (which is actually unlike melodramatic, emotional me) on the 'net. I'm glad when someone points something out that isn't right so I can do better next time, if it can't be fixed on that particular piece...
Bitchin!
Date: 2005-10-24 08:27 pm (UTC)Okay now, back to work...
I agree with you whole heartedly
Date: 2005-10-24 09:21 pm (UTC)I have never had a formal training in art and all the skills and techniques I've used have come from trail and error with the advice and critic of artist much better and skillful than I could ever hope to be. But I've been selling my art to put food on my table for years, however I still, even when I had an active medical career, I called myself an amateur. I'm an amateur because I am always trying out new techniques and skills and never consider myself a pro at my crafts. For a time I might have been considered a "pro" many years ago with my paintings and art work crafts because that was my sole income source. The work I do now, I do for practice and my pleasure and rarely do I sale any of my art pieces, just my written works because my style and skills are not the same standards as today's popular artists and draws few admirers to want it. Whatever the public wants and likes is what sells art, what makes a pro allowing them to make a profit from it and gives them the feeling of being pro.
It has been my experience that true pro's don't refer to themselves as such, but other artist will call them that out of respect for their skills. How many of the great masters of art referred to themselves as "pro" and I realize that is modern term.
This debate about being a "pro" to me is silly nonsense. True pros don't usually go around bragging about their success or belittling other artists even amateurs. What to me makes a "pro" artists in any field is the willingness to continue making art that people want and helping others to expand their skills. Some "elitist" might think that making profits from their art makes them a pro, but when the trends change and the stuff they are producing becomes common, that "pro" tag will wane and new "pro's" will emerge.
If we look at history and the true masters...you'll see that most of them also had other work to pay the bills. The great masters weren't rich, rarely did they live the high life unless they were under a live-in commission with benefits arrangement with a benefactor. And all the great masters struggled to get their art accepted, suffered criticism of their works and used it to improve, lived through harsh economic times and helped striving artist learn. These are the type of people I consider a pro.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 10:10 pm (UTC)I think anyone who is going around lording their status as a "pro" is probably not a pro. At the end of the day though, I don't understand why anyone cares if a given artist is a professional artist or not or when "amateur" turned into some sort of pejorative.
BTW, I'm not sure "transcribing" is the right word for the process of taking something written in SmallTalk and rendering it in C. If the SmallTalk source makes heavy use of blocks (since heavy use objects is a given), I suspect you're effectively rewriting the code from scratch based on an executable spec written in SmallTalk.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-24 10:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-25 01:01 pm (UTC)I think people tend to label others more than themselves. Its just when someone says something that others don't want to hear, they normally draw on their experience as justification ... lots of experience then gives the disappointed party ammo with the "stuck up pro" bullshit.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-28 03:34 pm (UTC)